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Recruiting and Negotiating Tips for Returning to work with Ex-Google Recruiter, Aria Zhang

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode features our guest Aria Zhang, who recruited for Google in the past, changed careers paths as management consultant and has recruited in various continents. This episode covers -

1. How to get into Human Resources and management Consulting? What it is like to work in each and how to change career paths?

2. How to talk to Recruiters?

3. What are some green flags and red flags in Resume?

4. How to effectively negotitate salary and levels while looking for jobs?

5. How to bridge the gap in your resume, if you have a gap in career from a Recruiter standpoint?

6. Difference in hiring in different continents - Asia and United States.

and some more golden nuggets of wisdom from a recruiter standpoint, what can be applicable to anyone looking for jobs.

More about Aria:

Aria Zhang got her MBA from Duke University and currently works as a Management Consutant at L.E.K Consulting. She has been a recruiter for Google in the past, worked for Amazon in the Retail Leadership department and has several years of Industry experience in Asia and United States.

Hi every one this is not Benita Day andyou are listening to one. The episode of the returns podcast with Nobela andthe non coffee in satine returns Ip Tartar helping people to go back towork after they have had a long, Holland courier to day. Ask where sheguessed is Arriaza. She has been imputed in the past, so Ino. She wants to manage. senter and she's gonna tell us about what you islook for when they are looking for cannydy to Eton to work and she's. Alsogoing to talk to us about how John about changing, comin paths from YeCutino Management Consulter. So welcome. Aria, let's get started, get yourselfsure think if they had in me, my name is ar Jo I'm currently working at aagement council in form a a council old in San ancistors. I start in my careerin recruiting and exactly search in Singapore and stands five years afilled, including Wi cutio. Then I decided to get on my comforten go backto business go. That is when I came to you as as Ben two years in this nessgoing to pursue my MBA delighted to be here today to share my prostateexecution. That was awesome. The fact that you were able to like have thiscove transition. I think a lot of listeners listing today, I'm sure theyare curious or you know what let let Pansion, how do you do the transition,basically how you to go about it yeah, so the Ole steps. First, I need to makesure I know what I want, so I really plan to think about what is my visionfor myself in conyers the work backward. What I want to achieve in tines time infivvor time they really think about what are the career I want. Then I drawa furcal of several jokin or functions. Why I want, then I need to cure anothercircle regarding well. I can do in touse of my background, for example.Initially I also want to be a prodeant, then I realized a lot of the kind ofrole they require in her in that ground and I do not have this kind ofbackground. So I'm less qualified for this kind of position, so I chose us tosir go together and see what is the intersection to understand? What arethe doves are most qualified for for and what I really desire at best andman consulting was one of the Publisht, so this is that number one tounderstand what I want to chief, a definite Ma to is to come. Is peoplewho have so similar poses me transitioning from recut to me whenconsulting it's, a pretty big transition, so I didn't find too manypeople have done the Contrasti, but whoever I found they were very open totalk to me because it's a very small group of people and they share with mesome cheeps regarding how to never how the prop have a Radome, how appropriatefor the interview than eventually. Yes, I successfully made the transition veryhappy about it. That is amusing. So we...

...no said I hardent all jobs andtechnology we take is one of the highest eolus. So currently needscoding background or doesn't need you no computer science at Susa Yeah. I wasjust trying to give example. There's a lot of jokes: they want. I need toanalyze whether I'm really qualified for them, if I'm less qualified thanit's harder for me to get into that than I of know. Now I probably need toprioritize other. Is that I still long and still call ifil yeah, I mean Idefinitely know that there are so many jobs to in the market, which does notneed especially engineering bad as but to very high pay, and I would recommend,is not listen to this podcast to like figure it out. Even if you're, notsomebody who has a computer science Baal, you can easy get in to get a lotof jobs around that. So the second thing you mentioned this, like havingmental side. You said that you ere shout to Mantes and ask him about thecolon pansions in like home. Would you epea what kind of questions as yeah to different people? I askdifferent questions. I feel a very important froste is to understand whatis the propers of the conversation nowadays. A lot of people know theyneed to ter. I also receive a lot of linty message asking me. Other they, Ihave a conversation with me. I noticed some really really outstanding Kandidat.They know what is the covers of the call. Are they increasing some specificjob or other games of tape, but some other people that keep the singergender to ask for everyone, and some hastens was not very relevant to my, somy recommendation really think about what is the purpose, for example, atthe very inusia stage of the career to search for a job. Maybe the purpose ofthe call is to really understand whether this career has it sutile foryou and at later Stagei of your job such is very targeted. You shouldunderstand what is their company? What is the application process, so I wouldsay the first time is Johnston. The purpose of the conversation to make itmore relevant and together mentor more interesting. The conversation than thesecond, the kind of question I ask, really depends on what is the state ofmy application process. However, I feel some killing custon include. I alwaysask them if they were in my shoe. What would they doing at the stage, and Ialways ask them whether there's anyone else in the net work I should talk to,because when I was in business school I was new to us. I don't know a lot ofpeople and if someone willing to talk to me or when you help me very likely,they help me introduced to some other people to expend my network. So thisare the two customs I fel helping old. So far, absolutely I do believe that,like the famous codecs, not what you know about it is who you know so youhave to like mit word and get around...

...the right set of people so so tin backto the Failyun, the past, Ay and Omneis. Do you have any generic picks forpeople who are just starting job search, especially with somebody who is agaping career on you? How should he approach the oposition? We did an elooking for somebody with that experience, yeah. Definitely so first,I ont clarify the role of recruiter in the application process. You typicallyrecruited. We have the first conversation with candidate and thepurpose of cause or free things. One is to introduce the room and understandyour situation and, second, to make sure you're holifies this job. The foodis very unusual screening to make sure your good cotteret. So, regarding thefirst introduction of the Roe and understand your situation, you shouldmake the point clear, although you have a career gap, you're very ready to getto go back to the work horse. Now let in Recalde have any doubt Regoli. Doeshe or she really want the food have job or do they still have some personalissues, so they had allegiant job. Make sure you clear on that point and second,regarding whether you a policy for this job, my recommendation is to reallyfocus the conversation recording. Why you're a good canedy for the position?My relentin is to read the job description at least three times tounderstand what they're looking for and tie the junto potion back to yourresume to pheres and stayed a long to the recruiter to kind of like freewatch them you're already having relevant experience, although it mightbe two years ago or five years ago, but you do have the Ramal experience andgood incomes of Carteret for this recruiter were only to a very, veryinsul screening. I'll just make sure you do some ininee to the recruiter,then you can pass so I know some recruited during the first call wherethey saw you resume. If you have a cap, somehow to t last, what's happening inthe gap to make sure you drive the conversation to professional side, nonpersonal side always supply the Toune make sure eighty percent of the Hayontia Constans was professional in twenty percent is only twelve personal.You don't need to explain any personal issue more than one, then as GErecruiter, for example. If it's, because you need to decade the family,just things like that, you don ly to explain further d drive theconversation to. However, at the same time, why I was having gap. I tried tolearn x, my the knowledge and try to strengthen my sells in Asmiel. So thisis the very first conversation he afterwards. A lot of decision makingwill go back to Haran manager and interviewers. Recruiting will make likeminimum decisions regarding by the Jahi. So all you need to do. I just stayprofessional with a recruiter as long...

...as they passed. The first gleaning wasrecruited that you preach good, pretty much tom with a recruiter stage. Ithink you've got to be very valuable points like the first one that Icaptured was being very clear on what you expectations look light when youare actually doing the job. Like is part. Time is time I just in yeah wehad before even applying some job. A recomembring to the podcast today isdoing back more after gating career in figuring out what it would look likewhen you do Redondo work. We working for how many hours you looking for- andyou know do- are you actually Ay for getting that part out of six extremelyimportant, and I think the second thing, the event about keeping Tete,professional and musically show how how you are the right food for the job.I think that was also like a very valuable one. It ATAS I can be applyingto a these jobs is like. I try to make sure that I point out how like theexperience that the company is looking for, is very relevant with myexperience and I kind of drive the conversation around that. So I candefinitely I to relate to that being somebody who has been contusing theword fors and have looked to way these jobs and interacting these variousreputes. So you mentioned that you know when somebody applies some jobs. Youhave that first conversation with day and mentioned some peoples around that.I know Persille, that you have a lie, countries and different compliments. HeDoo see any difference, beeing huns, hiding other continents yeah. I doseveral things I could think of Ectini very unlikely recruited will ask. Sowhat's happening during the gaff year, because it's kind of illegal is yourprivacy, but I know it's very commination that was happening duringthe caky and something I noticed very interestingly about Asian Canis as well.I'm a Oman. I can totally relate to that a lot of times I feel guilty. If Ihave a gap year, so I tried to explain: I had a gap, you basia was it becauseof this. Because of that you need to keep me mine, your Gat. Yes, definitelynot your fault, you don't need to explain it to anyone. We could er herethey're just trying to understand how they are horified for this job, no needto explain further unless they really to pro ferther. So this is onedifference between region. Another difference is not scalery. I know forus, especially California. The law does not allow recruited to art by yourcurrent salary, but in Asia. I think every Asian country retreated isallowed to ask what is the current away or what was your most reason salary, sothat is the difference, regarded the Grotian yeah. I think definitely oneparticular thing that I portly or best is even I have had conversations witheudes. I think I particularly struggle...

...sometimes with is like what are some ofthe things that fomile stand ponto looking for in the asuman, I know likewhen I was back in school, but I think that's one of the questions I almostevybody asks. You know that what kind of things are they looking for, so theygreen flags at? Do you feel, as you patineuse it as men yeah? So first GA question wasrecruited to looking for, for fact, I noticed very few recruited really spendmore than three minutes on the resume ually. When I was a recruiter when Iwas green, he besame. I will look at what are the company. They used to workfor to make sure they have the relevant industries views if that's neither andlook at the job title to make sure they have the right function of knowledge ifneeded. For example, if I'm recruiting people, Google and I'm recruiting forfinancial, but someone comes from maybe an automobile industry and they wereyou used to be in sales. Then, no matter how relevant the job of the roleis unlikely. I was selector the interview, so the most recent company and jobtitle matters and regarding Jo details, good matters as well, so the two kindof company ually a lot of big company. They have recruited dedicated to acertain position. They will look for Canat and they were really read. Resumeread the junk details in terms of that, my regimentation is to hide that backto the job to the Jones pusion. If the job is given is things this Jo? Youneed to do a lot of PROSUNT AL coordination to make sure if you havethis comment experience I light on Yon resume and I know also some smallcompany of some some other companies. They have this kind of system. Theywill use the system to filter. For example, if I'm looking ov a findersperson who has some accountin knowledge or have to certain certification, thenI can type in the system to filter for some Kueri make sure you really jubiderdescription. If there's any his edification of keepings make sureyou're higher down your metaling, otherwise there's a chance, we couldn'twon't even see you resume and to also your senator regarding some redlegbrief lap. I wouldn't say I have seen any reflect, but I would say sometimes,when I saw a resume for them of the person has not wrote, sing hundredfifteen and the six year gap that I know. If I can't here this personthere's some opportunity cause. I I need to maybe spend time ten minutes orthirty minutes to understand the situation. So it's a custom mark I waslike. Should I spend this time or if there's any some other perfect canonitethan I I will probably proparoithe any days so my recommendation. If, duringthe five years you have done any sideprojects or or learn anything makesure you put down your resume or you...

...can explain in the cover letter, don'tlet the recruit of felt what happen in this years? Should I can't have, orshould I ha to save my time and please have the recruiter had led them codeskind telime, let them be most Rayford. I want to come to the candas, so ingageyou, you really haven't done any sie projects or learn anything in the gaphere, which is totally fine. We can always always start to do now. There'sa lot of website. You can started his own projects so of example. Eventuallyyou can have a gap from two thousand and fifteen to two thousand and twentyone, but you or resume is surely you started to work a some project sincetwo thousand and twenty one, that's super helpful as well and if you thinkof any style idea in two thousand and twenty one and you started doing that,you have definitely put the date a little backward. For example, if youonly register your start, our company, I o thousand and twenty one but you'vethought about the idea since two thousand and eighteen and is onresearch. I E for the time line since two thousand and eighteen just make sure everything you out.There is still to so that's my recomendation. So one for question thatcomes to my mind is: Let's see, I'm speaking to cut, and I realize that,like the job that I hiding fall is not really my background doesn't fit withthat particular job. So how do you navigate the conversation of askingthem to coming to somebody else, probably where my nest, my life in adifferent in the same company yeah? So I would say first reallyhighlight your very interest in your company and be concise to say whyyou're interested, maybe there's the culture there you're very interested ofthe new initiative. The company has make sure the recruiter knows. Thesecond just ask them since I've not qualified for this position, I'm alsointerested in Sid, and he says you know whom I can connect you or whetherthere's any openings regarding this field that afterward, if you have therecruiter email, you can always do a search on the company website of thecareer side to see whether there's any relevant, optunity es. If Thou you cantender. Thank you, email to recruiter and stay. Your interesting disposition is a very good is like following of tand then basically forodia. The job description would be possiblyinterested in so for somebody you mention who is returning to work oreven like even getting started it. The job hunting process can be veryoverwhelming, and I often times we can sup lying while you're notheeding that. So what is the best way to be or to refuters in general or justin general. I wish to do fo the Dome of getting the line starting into process yeah. I know that that is tough, but Iwant to emphasize. Although I didn't...

...really have a lot of gaping my career, I had a lot ofrejection in my job ification. So my first hip is my young rejected killinmind. That is absolutely no lovel. I know so many hous and I comedies theystill get Tong of rejection and don't blame yourself and don't blame isbecause we have a gap here. There's a house, a reason why you rejected maybebecause you're a little bit late for the process. They already have a greatcandidate in mind or because eventually need decide to cut his haound. So now,blame yourself just keep going, is always a number game in sedan.Regarding how to follow was recruiter. My remendao two things one is to beorganized and seated not to be desperate. So, first regarding how tobe organized, my organization is duly follow on after one week time. Maybeyou can put a kind of reminder after the interview give recruiters of somebreathing room, then follow with them after the week time and the way youfollow, you can also stay a big thank you and the thing you can do a sandwichthing for first sais think is so much for the optunity. You really enjoy. Theconversation, and second point is regarding I want to follow whether youhave any update at the same time, if you have any update from your side, forexample, have some other final round interviews. You can definitely mentionthat you can. That means you're, helping recruiter to mate the time likeof the end and they'll be better way for as well. The last point is: Thankyou again why your interest for this position so send this kind of email,and the second point regarding don't be desperate. I have seen this before andmyself. I have been the shoe before. If I pabor a dream job, I have a very fastinterview and everythin thinking. I did I do the interview right. Do I get ajob and I tend to followthis recruiter very closely and in that way, sometimesit will have the wrong perception, or maybe the canny day if they don't haveany J, any other J optunity es. He actually is not horified for any otherjob. So make sure you don't sound desperate. You still have your commines.You know you have this value in the tele market, a lot of the companies whowill desire you, so just don't sound, desperate, just think of yourself as aprofessional cannula same as any other people obsita, my kids, wanting what toopes. You mentioned that bootherboomps and the s so that binstead like onceyou do have of her. What are you Tis to like go sheet offers, or in generallike? Do you just say yes to the first thing that's offered to you or howshould we approach in Disante, so you really recruited will ask you for yourter expectation before they give you...

...the offer, and that is very importantstage so before that my recommendation is always to do your research first,for example, if your interview is a red example, a problematic Amazon and is alevel full job that you need to sit on the Internet, what is a salary forproblem manager and Amooor, for you really never give you a pretty goodrange and especially if it's a big company, the ring should be afford. Ifyou have that in mind, your expectation or you say expeditely, you can say aslightly like higher side in a range to make sure later they can match neamatthat to provide us some negotiation room and if we could ask you like, whyis it do expert salary, especially if they already know your previous savaryis much lower than that they, you can say commonly this its call, yourresearch. What is the market average pay for this kind of job? Again, just always be comedat there erthing: Oh maybe I have a gap here, I'm not as qualified as other people justbe very confident. You definitely was that so the first step is research.Then, after giving out the expected venery later, recruiter may come backto you with the number or then they ask you for number again. If they ask youfor a number and if you're really interesting the job, my Egania is tostay the expected stary again the higher side of the target range fromyour research. At the same time, you can say I'm super interesting in aposition, because of is that is why I'm relatively prestable and open to here.What is your your offer as well, then, after recruiter comes back to you witha salary, if you're happy about it. Of course you look to negotiate, but ifyou're not happy se Ratin to negotiate the a couple of ways so usually mystyle, but when I negotiate as a comunale because I was recruited, Iusually I tushy could have very well I'd like to comerade with them, I'mvery open to them. I share with my full situation, for example, whether I havesome other interviews, which was a final stage or if you already have someother offers, you can help recruit honestly. What is their offer salary?My validation, I know some people they were thinking. Oh, should I need to lieabout her. Should I need to say I got a huge offer from other company. Myemendation is never to lie because recruited. They would know the marketreally. Well, if you say your offer for position what there's a lot of moneyfrom another company we coulde they liking to know whether that's true ornot, they know what is a staire America manetion they are. Life would just bevery honest, open with them. What is or other offer and don't say, like a trademarket, because they offer me this much I'm on this much but stating a softerway. They offer me this position, but I like your company better because theXyz, however, if you can mash that...

...salary, I will be very motivated- do totake the offer and I can look her company etc and also, if you're, askingfor more. Usually, if you provide more benefit for the recruiter, that's atrade off and what you can provide. EALLY is Pictai an stay. If you canoffer me this amount, I can sign right away. I return of a letter waiting theday and I can even make the sturdy earlier by doing that. You're alsodoing recluding favor and they are like it to doing you if they wor to chipeter, whether they have any space to increase that. So that is my type ofSan sociation. These are like amusing kids like I could completely thisbecause you know I have shed myselves like like. You must see some of thethings that I had done sub consciously writing once yer like nothing than itmakes a lot of sense. I I would recommend to listen to listen, say somegood resources to look for sal industry. Is this a cycle level Star II, whichhas like good salad ranges, and these also last on and lining also providesNovalis like a salary being just for Bade Company? So I think these are someof the good resources if you are wanting to do Manto research yeah. So Ifollow question to you: Dare you to come of Salle negotiation, the alsolevers Iota Rightlie? Sometimes you might be offered the level that is Luor higher may be looking for a higher limit. So how do you opoteconversations when it comes to an evocation, a office yeah? From myperson experience I feel levelly negotiation is much harder than sonegotiation because salary, the Seri structure that base the bones sign onstock. You can always negotiate certain port, but for leveling humanly isdecided by the the interviewer, the hiring anger from consensus. This isharder to negotiate. He is barely for bigger company for smaller company, myOnmando, if you, if that's, really important, for you again, being very open to recruited andlift down what is a priority. If you negotiate one thing, my Ogamal try toload out other expectation, for example, if levellings really important for you,you can tell reculer. This is your Poerio. If you get that you're open toexcept the current canery being offered to you, you can't be negotiate all ofthe location levelling Sary, the look like you just on everything make sureyou or some Alarcon. What is the priority, so we couldn't know which oneto help you just giving mind. You really have offerta recruited theretotally on the things bide at EU is Tekau wow. If they give you the offer,they want you to capture so make sure you share the information with him orher. You work as a thing in try to get the offer as satisfying as possible. Ithink definite her. I don't see age it...

...these tapes and I'm like really gladwith having this conversation, because I'm sure there are so many listenerslistening and now I just people negation of the biggest holders Ipossibly have had since in the industry, who did no hobe station had just joined,so we just accepted whatever was even to them, but kind of knowing a littlebit more on what is to be done and Wanese going into jobs in generalizing.It helps a lot beaded of the day if the candys is satisfied and along with likehigh hands in a rests like much more productivity than usual. So definitelywe up echevelee ticks. So I want to change Ousias you about the Yoannes.Could you tell us a little more about what management Consoo? What of Job Yeah so first question what he also thefirst country regarding what does minimum has told you do I hated knowthe answer of my year ago before I enter the industry. To be very honest,but now I know so. My job on the high level is to help business solve theirproblem, and the problem could be like how to impress their revenue how toincrease their mockesin having pre profit, how to better, do a bettermogin, apposition, all kind of problem and what we really did on the day today base. So first, if there's a problem, we need to understand what isthe group cause of the problem to really solve it? So we probably spendhalf of the pace time to really dip give theirtheir financials all the data them interviews Johnston. What is the recalsof the problem after that waiting to solve the problem, and before that we needn't understandwhat is the objective for ten, for example, if they remnant declined,maybe the objective does not to increase around you. Maybe what mattersto them is more of ISID. So it's Cretica to understand what is theobjective, a lot of client, interaction and clit alignment on that, becausedifferent positions, we think the organization could have differentopinion. After that alignment, we can propose some solutions and the solutioncould be based on has experience or based on some interviews, and when welist the all of the solutions, we need to see how to Pilotis them and isprobably based on another data analysis to see with in different scenario,which solution will provide the best outcome and all also understand whichthe lusion is most feasable and eventually we you to seem to size doingI thing into a deck and present the information to the client. That's whatwe do on de day basis in regarding how...

...to enter this position. Probably a lotof people know that case into veal, which is pretty different from otherinterviews, so my Mandatis to really reach them casino. You both tounderstand how to tackle the problem. I would say that his interview is prettysimilar to how we really ov a case in the real life, and I do feel so. Yourcase help me a lot in terms of other interviews, the Teal. Now I knowwhatever in to me intend I always kep this fremmit light. If I'm giving aproblem, I need to understand what they do cal before, loving that, if youdon't really know what's behind the problem, you can have a propos solutionand always understand what it's do. JECTIVE. I find us kind of thing. I,how me for a life, love life life time, not just for this litle industry andregarding HR, how to enter this industry. The many different roles inhi recruited compensation of some people analytics, so my Remendao justthink about what you're interested if you're interesting talking to people,then maybe you crudites for you. If you're interested in, like like legalrelated of the lot, maybe some labor relationship is more suitable for you,but if an interesting data people analytics is as suitable for you, youcan start from a Colson. Maybe you an me or Casera to really understand whatdoes to day to day job look like my commendation is not very hard to enterit. How industry you just need to take a house and read a jug description andthink the job description to your resume. So we halesus and no management,are the thing a you as I a that you see. Are you so that now you are themanagement Passonians yeah for sure. So the first thing,jumping to my mind, is people interaction. So when I was a recruiterI need, I probably talked to fifty people on day to day basis, and now, asthe mamma come consultant, especially a lot of cases of global cases, I caneasily navigate different CANTU. I can talk to anyone very easily, so that isunhinge. The the other thing is, I feel on. It was the recruiter, because Ineed to recruit for different function. So I roughly understand what his ides,what is the ICIN? What is different functions? Why compares someone may bejust purely from hindis background? He or she may only know finance, so he maye Consti and her relate to and think broadly. How does position was such adifferent sumption. So these are the two things like a properly think helpme make the precision and to listen to my Remendao. If you want to do anytransition, you can list down. What is your coregos and what is the needestGilt? I'm sure there's always a link between the two. Absolutely I think...

...one of the advice like well as Imentors Lakin have shamed, with MES like when you're trying to make tochange. Do Tamim. Sometimes it's easier. If you in the same company you canchange in to when you're, making that or even thinkof some of those other job roles like Eshi, cams or projects are helped withthat liking, often times even eventially concert demades these kindof fat omes. For my view, we beges that that are necessarily when you,especially waiting in packs and changing COLEAS. So I follow questionis to you. I say now that you we have been talking about going to work and,as for the same point like, I know that a Lysius are pores base to help peoplewho are trying to get back to worm. So how do you think like we should be likethis on a syces can hate from a tin sand? For yes, it was definitely super helpful. Ifeel sometimes, if I relate to my timing inbusiness, go- and I know some when people have having a cap here is reallyeasy to stay in your own bubble. I was, I was really frustrated and I was apain tack, but if I can't find a job- and it's so important to find your ownamor to hear other people's Voice, so people are having a same problem andhow they solved the problem as super imported to connee kind of people. So Iwould say this super helpful. Thank you so much for sharing these amusing giftstoday. I'm sure that you know we the last few minutes if we do like bisinessat so many importants, like seditions, like from negotiating continuing coustoting paths from Achamanam to hadopted those amusing Tis, like I sisley so incase, somebody was to re Al to you and ask you an follow question. What is thebest way to be talking sure you can always drop your email. My email is myfirst name or a IA on the go, my last name, the Hag and Holland or home alsobaby o to thank you. So much for listening to us well on so ocasions we neosho. Thank you. I.

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